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Author Topic: Anyone reading about the Everglades Headwater Proposal?  (Read 105927 times)
Anoriginal
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2011, 07:21:04 PM »

From the federal perspective, a preserve allows for a more broad base of uses within the property while a refuge is the most restrictive. Big Cypress is a preserve. It allows private land ownership, ORV use, hunting, etc. That's not to say they couldn't draft a refuge plan that would allow private ownership. However, I think recreational use in a refuge would be severely limited to nonexistent. I'd imagine the headwaters would be a different beast all together with private enterprise, ownership and sale. However, the manner in which its conducted would have definite limitations and restrictions.

Regarding the prospect of government buyout, I do think it will eventually happen in RR and very similar to the way it happened in Picauyne. People will be paid the appraised value of their actual property (not the property where their camps are located). I don't imagine the property owners will be responsible for moving anything. Usually, the entity utilizing eminient domain to purchase the property handles that aspect. However, I think this is years away.

About desinated trails, it's not a bad idea. If RRPOA was truly well spoken, well organized and self policing, it would certainly help set the tone for what type of utilization people would enjoy over the property after a takedown. The more you're able to show you're a proper steward of the land, the more likely they are to work with you.
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2011, 08:07:22 PM »

I spoke to Cheri Everhardt yesterday morning for about 45 minutes.  Many comments were blind answers from her.  She did say that many times they are told to expect hundreds at a meeting and find only 5 people showing up.  BE INVOLVED if you care.  Be aware that these will be facilitator driven meetings.  They will work to keep the meeting in the scope of what FWC wants regardless of the crowd input.  What she did state several times was basically a mission statement answer for FWC and a Wildlife Refuge standard:

Six wildlife-dependent public uses have been given priority consideration over other public uses. Priority public uses include hunting, fishing, wildlife observation and photography, and environmental education and interpretation. If these uses are determined to be compatible with refuge purposes, and funds are available to manage them, they will be allowed. The specifics of public use will be addressed in a refuge's Comprehensive Conservation Plan.

Note:  There are a lot of IFS unwritten in that statement.

If you go to one of the Public Scoping meetings it is best to stay calm.  Ask questions that cannot be later turned to work against you.  Read as much as you can about the proposal so that the double talk answer given cannot be made to look YOU seem to be a buffoon.  If they dance around your answer, ask it again.  Best to have written it down so you can show that it is the same question that was not answered.  
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 08:14:57 PM by renmus » Logged
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2011, 10:06:43 PM »

Thank you.
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 03:12:40 PM »

My family and I would truly miss RR. Cry Cry Cry I can't say I'm in favor of taking away one of the only ATV and hunting areas available in FL. I think it's reasonably well run, the number of people allowed in is kept in check by the having a manned front gate and memberships. The trails are litter free for the most part and most people keep to the trails. I can't believe RR is a big offender of water pollution like a big dairy or sugar cane feild would be. This just sucks IMO
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2011, 04:39:05 PM »

My family and I would truly miss RR. Cry Cry Cry I can't say I'm in favor of taking away one of the only ATV and hunting areas available in FL. I think it's reasonably well run, the number of people allowed in is kept in check by the having a manned front gate and memberships. The trails are litter free for the most part and most people keep to the trails. I can't believe RR is a big offender of water pollution like a big dairy or sugar cane feild would be. This just sucks IMO

Not to worry. I think this is years off. And, how it happens has a lot to do with the way RR is handled in the meantime. If things stay as they are, there's little hope.
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« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2011, 11:05:11 AM »

You all here need a lot of help to understand u will lose it all if u don't OPPOSE any more Federal Sprawl on public land in Florida. I see by the posts that u all are not experienced with the Feds and especially motor hating USFWS National Wildlife Refuges. Their refuges are refuges for critters and especially not motor using people.

To suggest that this years away and not a big problem now is access suicide. USFWS is talking about having a plan to comment on in a few months. Now is the time to say NO loudly and in unison.

Suggest you all go to a facebook page "Stop Federal Sprawl" and/or Southern Airboat.com(SAC). Once at SAC go to the forum, then Airboat Talk, then "Feds Going for Kissimmee+".

At SAC u can get the real info on this bad idea with a promise of Wilderness Review and management protocols.
Chek out the project proposal, section xiv at pg 21 and see the tricky dickie language related to Wilderness. What it means is in layman English is that they will recommend and designate Wilderness although all they have to do is recommend in order to force Wilderness management protocols to be put in place. I tried to attach the project proposal but this site's limits prevented it. Will edit with a link later.
http://www.fws.gov/southeast/greatereverglades/

Private landowners, farmers and cattle men can do what they want on this bad idea since it is their right under thre US Constitution. They are the backbone of America giving us our food and deserve our respect. They also need to know that if they take the bait for a quick buck they will also be screwed in the end the same as everyone else on public lands. It may take the Feds longer to get the shaft in them but they will over time (10-30 years) the same way it was done down in the Big Cypress and Addition. That is why this bad idea has to be fought and opposed possibly with landowners as allies.

Notice the USFWS has not listed who their so called partners are. Probably because they are intentionally creating a false impression of large support to make folks think they can't beat this thing. Very old political trick.

Kind of like planting folks on this forum to rob u of confidence.

So called PUBLIC LAND access is the responsibility of folks here. Yes RESPONSIBILITY - What do you think - someone is going to do it for u. Don't hold your breath.

It is unbelievable that folks here are suggesting to sit back and take the loss. No wonder why America is not what it was 50 years ago. No way America could happen today considering the percentage of gutless, lazy, green leaning slugs with no courage or confidence to fight.

Americans fight for their rights they don't sit back.

Every ATV club in America should be sending comments to this Erhardt lady saying NO HELL NO.

Working together en-masse Americans can stop anything they want to stop. The problem here is similar to racism. The bureaucrat bigots running things hate y'all and will screw u whenever they can. They cannot do it so easy if u get off your seat and go to the meetings and raise hell to the max in a POLITE manner with a SMILE on your face. That is hard to do but think about what u say no matter how harsh and force yourself to express a positive image by smiling - that way u don't get folks feeling sorry for the gov't. people having to put up with rudeness. This technique although somewhat unatural works in your favor.

Keep The Faith
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 11:20:25 AM by gladesman » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2011, 09:55:04 AM »

I agree 100% with gladesman, people better speak up now. I have seen the governments idea of "public use" of lands and it's not really for the public at all.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Stop-Federal-Sprawl/131792456885788
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« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2011, 08:10:35 PM »

Call it out Gladesman.   As I stated, I am ready to fight this battle. 
I called the lady at FWC and got a lot of government doublespeak mumbo jumbo.  They believe they can BS this through.  Lets show them WE are the masters of BS, not them.
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« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2011, 11:20:29 PM »

Ms Erhardt is not with FWC she is with the Feds (U S Fish and Wildlife Service). These folks main mission is to promote and enforce the Endangered Species Act (ESA) any way they can. One way is to bribe State agencies such as Div of Forestry and Fl Fish & Wildlife Commission in to caring more about Endgrd Species than people. They accomplish that with section 6 agreements described in detail at Section 6 of the ESA which pay agencies to protect endgr'd species and to further the purposes of the Act. That is the real reason FWC and Forestry will be hard to convince to oppose this tyranny. FWC and Div of Forestry are in these agreements as u read this. Lots of money reasons for them to suppoort this until folks know the dirty little secret  truth. Once they are outed they may run or try to defend their actions by moaning enviro concerns. Outing them is still worth the effort.
Speaking of the money reasons like these agreements publicly may make these cockroaches run. Post information illuminating these agreements as comments to a Jan 27 Sun Sentinel article written by Ken Salazar for the Sentinel. Go to Sentinel's home page, then search Sentinel's site using these 3 words exactly (salazar lightsey headwaters). Register and discuss what is before u here. It may help to google the Endangered Species Act and read section 6 so u can write more effectively since section 6 is not that long.
Other reasons explained on Southernairboat.com plus Facebook's "Stop Federal Sprawl page will also be effective justifications to vociferously but politely OPPOSE this planned removal of State Sovereignty supposedly guaranteed by the US Constitution. That is unless the State of Fl. is complicit as it looks like they might be unless a light of truth shines brightly upon them.
Your our comments are the LIGHT.
Not much time so work fast.
By the way this article has already been picked up in England. Trust me-the right folks see this stuff (the comments of folks like us) questions will start being asked if the Sentinel doesn't pull the plug. 
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« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2011, 10:07:34 AM »

Gladesman -

First, your comments about us not having experience with the Feds and essentially not knowing what we're doing are off base. Especially if you're looking for support from the ATV community for your friends with SAC. Some of us on this site have vast experience dealing with the feds. I'm one of them. Having said that, we are all on the same side. However, getting everyone to realize it is difficult. More on that in a moment.

Second, the Kissimmee River watershed initiative has been in play for years and years. I posted on here about it probably three years ago. The river, and surrounding areas are prime watershed and the feeder into Okeechobee and eventually the Everglades. This isn't anything new. Much of the time for getting involved passed years ago. In my experience, once the feds get to a plan comments stage, the die is already cast. Usually, you'll get a few different proposed plans to comment on, you'll comment and then the feds will pick the one they want regardless. Similar to what's happening in the Addition Lands within the Big Cypress right now.  However, as usual, everyone is asleep at the wheel early on in the process and, they get involved too late and do too little to make any difference. River Ranch and the surrounding area has been in the mix since the late 90's. This isn't a secret initiative that was kept in the dark. Kudos to you and your group for getting involved. Hopefully with your help, people will salvage waht they can of the feds takeover.

Third, my comments about it being years off are correct. However, you can bet that eventually much (if not all) of River Ranch will be taken away. Never mind the fact that the vast majority of the property utilized by "members" of River Ranch isn't owned by them. Moreover, the majority of the camps within River Ranch are not built on property actually owned by the camp owners. This makes it very, very easy for the Feds or the State to exercise their powers of eminent domain and take property without having to pay and arm and a leg for it. I've said all along that, if the folks are serious at River Ranch about keeping at least some access to that area, they need to be proactive. Elect a true, capable representative board that will actually do something about future use and access and not just think about next week. Designate trails. Demonstrate that the RRPOA is a good steward of the land. Send well spoken, educated and capable members on your behalf to meet with the Feds and State to discuss the issue of continued land use. Then, maybe (and I stress maybe) will the powers that be look at you in a more favorable light when it comes to head chopping time.

Fourth, your comments about getting to work and doing something are great. However, theres one problem with all outdoorsmen and women that ruins things for everyone and, thats apathy. Where was SAC when we were fighting the designated trail system in the Big Cypress? I don't remember seeing any of them at the ORVAC meetings other than a few individual guys that happened to be memebers. Where were you when they started in with the now ridiculous designated trail system in Ocala? Where were you when they closed off the Holeylands to ATV use? I'm not picking on you and your group, only demonstrating a point. You and your group are exactly the type of people we all need to be onvolved iwth. You're actually on the ball and doing something about things. But, there's no continuity between all of us. We never get involved or unify unless something is directly impacting us. Now that your group is faced with losing an area they dearly love (the Kissimmee), they're suddenly really involved and up in arms. And, that's great! However, you're not going to see all of the other ORV segments jump in behind you to help because, they never do. It's that way with all of us it seems. Unless it's in our sandbox, we just don't think its a big deal.

Right now, the Big Cypress Sportsman's Alliance is preparing to file suit against the National Park Service and the DOI for the Big Cypress Addition Lands fiasco. We're getting funded, have lots of legal firepower, and have several National and World wide organizations behind us. We'll be taking on the Sierra Club and many enviro nazi types in this battle. We'll be fighting to ensure that areas stay open for us to use. And by "us" I mean outdoorsmen and women. One of the key issues in this fight is the designation of "wilderness areas" within the addition lands. So, yeah, I know all about what a designated "wilderness area" means and how it impacts us.

If you really want to accomplish something, get all groups to come together. Give us all one common goal and fight. Rally everyone and present a unified front. You can bet the enviro idots are all backing each other with break in ranks. If you can do it, more power to you and I (along with many others) will back you 100% in every way possible.

I've been doing this for years and years. I am a board member and past officer/president of the Manatee and Sarasota Fish and Game Association. Been involved with ELMAC (environmental land management and acquisition committee) for Manatee County, helped secure access within Duette Preserve for hunters, spent enormous amounts of my own time and money fighting for access for everyone, only to have those I fight for show little to no appreciation. But, I will still keep it up so that my son and his children will have an opportunity to enjoy what I still do.

Your posts demonstrate that you know what you're talking about and, that's a good thing. Being educated on the issues at hand is the single most important step in this fight. I wish you the best in your fight and, you can bet that there are those of us who knew all about it and will be supporting you all the way. Your guess is as good as mine when it comes to getting people involved and on board to fight. Everyone wants to go play. nobody wants to work. Unfortunately, the ATV community seems to be the worst.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 10:52:11 AM by Anoriginal » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2011, 02:21:32 PM »

Some SAC members did travel to Addition meetings in Weston Fl to aid us in that ongoing battle. That is why I feel I owe it to them now to assist them as much as possible if only in providing information and ideas on comments. Personally I haven't owned or airboated much in 15 years. I was a hardcore airboater from 1972 until around 2000.
Major battles must be spearheaded for the most part by locals in the area. It is their responsibility mainly since it is their(as u say ) sandbox. As far as ORVAC meetings hardly anyone that hunts the Big C even goes to them much less outsiders. I consider ORVAC meetings a sandbox issue that knowledgable locals are most effective at driving. As far as the Holy Land goes I actively worked to assist ATV Extreme (Cary Hernandez), the HUMP folks and others to organize and fight for their rights. They lasted for a while and had success in causing a study promoted by Commissioner Diaz that forwarded a site for ATV's at the Jetport. That idea was withdrawn by the County under direct orders from Mayor Carlos Alvarez. End of that story for now? The Picayune strand tyranny was another ATV issue I waded in to with other hunters. Here is the strange part-as we hunters attended many meetings promoting allowing ATV's in Picayune there were hardly ever any real ATV folks at these meetings. Eventually they lost due to apathy and the sale of sovereignty to USACE and USFWS by the State for 300 million dollars of Farm Bill money.
As far as structures in RR being on their deeded site - that is a problem. Another strange fact in relation to that is that NPS in Big C has rigged some informal agreements where a landowner can swap their land for NPS land under their private structure. I doubt USFWS would be that accomodating considering their published refuge philosophy.
Unification of effort would be great if possible. I don't know if it since the government lobs more than 1 hand grenade at a time in our direction which must be dealt with. That alone forces us to divide our focus. I guess leaders have to be able to chew gum, walk, skip rope etc. to stay on top of things.
Leaders like yourself can do that after many years of experience. Other newbies cannot be expected to. It is our responsibility to lead. If we bring the horse to the trough and it won't drink we have done our best.
I know what the Alliance is involved in since I was part of its establishment 5 years ago and am still involved. We have worked tirelessly in promotion of more secondary trails (by ourselves for the most part) down in Big C. We have a major Turner River Trail trail proposal on the table now that is being reviewed. It will lead to more access of that I am sure. The same is being done in Corn Dance Unit by others. It isn't enough but it is all we can handle with the few people assisting us.
It is also correct that many do not understand or appreciate how much a few folks like us do to preserve what many enjoy. The way I get around that morale problem is that I am always thinking of kids more than the apathetic fools that don't understand the power they could exert if they would just try.
Now to you Mr Aboriginal and possibly renmus here. 2 smart motivated people like y'all can make a difference now. We've all spent a lot of time writing here.  I am requesting u 2 to go to the Sun Sentinel article from Jan 27 mentioned in a previous post here and comment in strong opposition to the Refuge bad idea. Exposure needs to be gotten that Florida folks don't want it. The Sun Sentinel is a great tool we can use. Please do it as soon as possible. doing so may get some other folks doing it when we start this snowball rolling.
Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2011, 06:31:54 PM »

Thank you, gentlemen! Most folks are too busy working and raising families to go to all the necessary meetings. Short of some sort of "Save The Trails" donation fund campaign, is there anything we could do to hire a professional "lobbyist"? You would think that RRPOA and SEPOA, just to name two, would have an interest to either raise dues or sponsor BBQ fund-raisers, etc. to help hire a professional spokesperson(s)/group to help fight the fight at the meetings.
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« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2011, 08:00:26 PM »

Please don't take this as ego-trippin. I believe after 14 or so years dealing with the feds that y'all can trust my advise. Admittedly one might question advise that doesn't cost a lot. There is no time to wait on a knoght on a white steed.

The actions I have suggested on SAC, Facebook's - Stop Federal Sprawl page and here need to be taken immediately by whoever can (U reading this) if this Headwaters is to be stopped in its tracks as needed to preserve the future.

Actions to take include going to Sun Sentinel's site and commenting strongly against the project as a response to the Jan 27 article written by Dpt of Interior Secretary Ken Salazar for the paper.

Then get to meetings - not to discuss the bad idea but to say No Way Jose, No Heck No or No Hell No - Period with no hint of compromise.

Everyone needs to fully understand the following fact - Not commenting will be understood by USFWS and their partners that U have no problems with there plan. GUARANTEED - I know this for a fact therough 14 years of experience.

U must oppose all of it (the concept) if you don't want it to haunt your life from now on. Otherwise u will be put in their support column with Audubon, Nature Conservancy etc. They are alolowed to make an assumption of No Problem from anyone who doesn't oppose or comment differently.

TAKE ACTION - TAKE ACTION   Do NOT sit back waiting on others - U WILL LOSE
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« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2011, 09:48:51 PM »

just a thought, but what about getting Terry Thompson in on this?  seems like what the feds wanna do with RR is exactly what they did with Ocala, and maybe he would have some advice at the least as to what to do to help combat them.

Also, I don't know if it would even help, but I'm a friend of Daniel Webster's chief of staff and I'm sure I could bend his ear a bit on this if I asked.

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« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2011, 10:26:41 PM »

I just listened to the tape of the recent meeting in Kissimmee. Not enough folks expressed firm opposition to the project. They got caught up in Q&A and possibly forgot to state opposition that would have become part of the USFWS legal record.
Folks should try to avoid that mistake at future meetings.
Never heard of Terry Thompson so don't know what to say. Mr Webster I believe is a State Rep or Senator and it is always good to keep them informed on issues in their district any way possible (be sure to state to him or his staff (your strong position on the project) with no hint of doubt in your voice. Keep in mind elected officials have many folks tugging at them.
Again I will state there isn't time available to fret over what to do.
Start spreading the word to strongly oppose or u will be involved with this nightmare for the next 25 years as u lose all along the way.
The road to victory is to kill this thing dead quickly as far as PUBLIC land goes..
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« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2011, 07:39:23 AM »

Fyi, Dan Webster was a state rep for a while, he was recently elected to take Alan Grayson's spot in Washington.

How did you get a tape from the meeting? Any way we can download I or somehow listen?

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« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2011, 12:41:39 PM »

Here is a utube link. Listen in the beginning to how USFWS tries to break folks up into small groups for them to gather Q&A and comments. By them doing this they prevent folks from knowing what was actually said by all attendees. This USFWS tactic was brilliantly defeated by attendees that listened to my advice at this meeting. Mr Danny Brantly from Kissimmee River Valley Sportsmen's Association (KRVSA) deserves a commendation for his taking POLITE control of this issue.
LOHP 1 26 11 Meeting Question and Answer

Enjoy
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 04:33:27 PM by gladesman » Logged
AintSkeered
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« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2011, 10:20:09 PM »

Thanks for sharing the information.
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« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2011, 11:14:45 AM »

Renmus,
Don't know if my pm to u got thru due to the lousy stinking verification required for a pm. Couldn't distinguish letters + no alternative letter set. Just more un-needed bureaucracy.

I'll get to the point. somewhere I received notice that the author of the audio tape couldn't make the Sebring meeting but would lend someone the taping equipment.

I have a responsible party that may do it but I need to contact the author.

Can u put us together since u said u know the person. I will in turn connect the author with the volunteer.

If they have already found a volunteer that is great to.

Gladesman
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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2011, 05:22:24 PM »

Here's some interesting and possibly encouraging information; http://www.arra-access.com/site/DocServer/01-28-2011_Wild_Lands_to_Salazar.pdf?docID=381
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« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2011, 06:22:19 PM »

Hmmmmm
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« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2011, 06:40:29 PM »

Seems meaningless without action such as also supplying DOI with a bill to repeal the Wilderness Act.
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« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2011, 06:47:19 PM »

Heartening, but we still have a fight on our hands. 
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« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2011, 10:18:34 PM »

I have been quietly watching this thread since it started.  This morning, I received a call from the RRPOA regarding hearings on the Fed's plans for RR.  There are three scheduled next week; Okeechobee, Sebring and Vero Beach.  The Sebring meeting is this Friday, February 4th, at the Civic Center from 6:00 - 9:00 PM.  The next meeting is in Okeechobee on Wednesday, February 9th, at the high school from 6:00 - 9:00 PM.  The last meeting is in Vero Beach on Thursday, February 10th from 6:00 - 9:00 PM at the high school.  This is a concerted Federal and State effort to take these lands from us.  The plans, as Anoriginal suggested, are already clearly spelled out.  It is called the Bombing Range Ridge and they've already secured nearly 2,000 acres north of SR60 with clear cut plans to acquire the rest.  These lands will be transformed into 'limited access low-impact recreational areas.'  Unless you have a horse or like to walk, there will be nothing there for you.  Don't believe me?  Read this.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/lands/FFAnnual/B_BombingRangeRidge.pdf

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"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves ... a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
gladesman
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« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2011, 10:40:06 PM »

Thanks for the effort digginfool. I read everything on the dep link that was there. This bombing range ridge looks to be totally a State managed project having nothing to do with the concerns expressed on this thread.
The concerns here are totally about any Federal Control being exerted and usurping State power.
We have many methods and people to deal with State entities but few to deal with the Feds hence the outrage at what the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) is directly involving thamselves in here in Fl.

Federal involvement brings NEPA comments from everyone in US tilting the balanced mg't. scale against us with thousands enviro comments  plus politically u have 500 elected officials to deal with instead of a few local ones.

Additionally this ridge acquisition looks to be about 30,000 acres shy of being complete.

My thought is that your info is sort of like apples and oranges compared to the Federal Sprawl issues folks understand and are concerned with here..

I hope this helps everyone.

Gladesman
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